Reclaim & Rise with Dr. Sabrina Hadeed
Welcome to Reclaim & Rise with Dr. Sabrina Hadeed (formerly the Microdose your Marriage podcast and then the love and your truth podcast because it turns out the name was already taken, fingers crossed this is the last name change) — licensed feminist psychotherapist, mother, educator, and guide for women ready to break cycles, reclaim their power, and rise into the life they were born to lead.
This is your space for heart-centered conversations, raw truths, and powerful stories about what it really takes to reclaim your voice, your body, your boundaries, and your future.
Here, we dive deep into the messy, beautiful, and transformative work of:
✨ Modern, grounded spirituality without the BS
✨ Feminist self-development and embodied leadership
✨ Systems Leadership
✨ Conscious uncoupling and partnerships
✨ Healing after rupture — in love, family, or self
✨ Plant medicine and trauma-informed integration
✨ Feminine entrepreneurship and rewriting success on your terms
No performance. No perfection. Just the real, unapologetic journey of becoming the person you were meant to be.
Let’s break the patterns, reclaim your truth, and rise — together.
To learn more about Dr. Sabrina Hadeed and psychotherapy practice and/or her legal psilocybin program for couples and individuals operating in Bend, Oregon visit her website:
www.loveandpsychedelics.co
and
www.drsabrinahadeed.com
Reclaim & Rise with Dr. Sabrina Hadeed
E6: Dr. Jim Fadiman: The Grandfather of Microdosing, 50 years of research and 85 years on this earth
Exploring the Benefits and History of Microdosing: A Conversation with Dr. James Fadiman
In this episode of the Microdose Your Marriage podcast, Dr. Sabrina Haddad interviews Dr. James Fadiman, a renowned researcher and author in the field of psychedelics, notably known as the 'grandfather of microdosing.' Throughout the discussion, they explore Dr. Fadiman's extensive experience, his new book 'Microdosing for Health, Healing, and Enhanced Function' and the impact of microdosing on individual well-being and relationships. The conversation delves into the practical and philosophical aspects of microdosing, its potential benefits, the evolving research in the field, and Fadiman's views on death. The episode provides insightful perspectives on the applications of microdosing in both personal development and therapeutic settings.
00:00 Introduction to Dr. James Fadiman
01:03 The New Book: Microdosing for Health
03:27 Exploring Microdosing and Its Impact
06:51 Microdosing in Daily Life
14:15 Intention and Amplification in Psychedelics
19:19 Microdosing and Relationships
22:26 Categories of Couples in Therapy
24:16 Rekindling Old Relationships
26:08 Insights on Long-Term Marriage
28:31 Therapeutic Benefits of Microdosing
30:18 Psychedelics in Mental Health Practice
34:11 Legal Landscape of Psychedelics
36:32 Reflections on Death and Dying
45:28 Legacy and Recognition in Psychedelic Science
Stay connected with Dr. Sabrina Hadeed on Instagram @dr.sabrinhadeed
Learn more about Dr. Hadeed on her website www.drsabrinahadeed.com
Welcome to another episode of the Microdose Your Marriage podcast. I am very excited and honored to have Dr. James Fadiman. I'll call him Jim as he's requested, as a special guest today. For those that aren't familiar, Dr. Fadiman is an American writer and researcher known for his research in microdosing psychedelics. He co founded the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology, which later became Sophia University, and was a lecturer there for many years in psychedelic studies. He received his bachelor's degree from Harvard, his doctorate, both master's and Ph. D. from Stanford. He has a longtime friend and former Harvard grad, Rom Doss, who was his advisor. Fadiman has also authored many books, the top two, the Psychedelic Explorers Guide, and then one of my favorites, The Symphony of Selves. He's also known as the grandfather of microdosing. He's been in the field of psychedelics for over 50 years now. So I'm pretty excited to have him here, and he has a new book coming out, and I'm delighted to get to ask him about that book.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yes. Well, um, grandchildren would say that I didn't create them and I'm assuming it was the same for microdosing because we don't, uh, I've been called a lot of things, many of them nice, but father of modern microdosing is fair. it's sufficiently close to accurate that I don't wince when I
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Okay.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:And, and I have been exploring microdosing for the last 12 years there will be a book. In February, called Microdosing for Health, Healing, and Enhanced
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:in the Way of the World, Amazon says, if you're going to publish a book, and you're going to use us, and we know you have to, so whatever we say goes, you will put in a page saying what a fantastic book you are, and who all your friends are, and so forth, six months in advance. So, if you want to beat the rush, Amazon will be happy to, and this is the fair part, they will hold your money.
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Nice.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:And if the publisher and Amazon work out a better deal than the list price, uh, Amazon will only charge you what it
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:In these days of scammed for everything you can imagine, um, it's not a bad deal. So anyway, you can read about the book online a little bit. And we will cover some of it today, although I will tell you in advance that if you're interested in using microdosing for couples, um, this is the source
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Beautiful. This as in, as in the book?
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:now,
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:as in me. Thank you.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Sorry, I admit the grammar could go either way.
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:I, that's, that means a lot to me. Thank you. Well, I'm excited though, to, to, to get to, you know, read the book. I'll definitely reserve mine, give Amazon my money to hold to, um, help with the hype.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Thank you. It's actually one of the little marketing tools. Every once in a while you may get a note from an author that says, if you buy my book on the first day it's available, I will throw in a picture of me and my dog, and I will send you love notes.
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:I love it. How long did you work on this book?
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:About two and a half years, I guess, and the problem is microdosing is not a, um, an established world. uh, the metaphor, and I didn't invent it, but it works beautifully, is we're flying the plane while
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Oh,
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:So literally we would write a section and two weeks later, my co-author Jordan Gruber, or I would send each other a note and saying, did you see what just came
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:wow.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:And it would be something which would be good to add. Sometimes it was a necessity to change what we
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Um, because as is in true in
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:research actually doesn't proceed almost
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:which is
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:That's right.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:people are interested in or have already experienced. So we have a lot of, um, stories or reports or whatever you want to call them, which is how researchers get, get curious. So there's now a lot of research. When we started writing the book, we easily could say, since there's so little research, this book is terrific.
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Now we're saying, since there is now research catching up with what you'll read in this book, we've included research whenever, whenever
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah. Wow. I love that reminder, you know, just, just being attuned to the ever evolving, almost like real time of this, of this, of this field in particular
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah, I would. The nice thing is if I'm the father of microdosing, you are the mother or the girlfriend of, or the best, bestie of working
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:with couples.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:with
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Oh, I'll take it.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:So that's how
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:That's how it works. That's how it works. Like the family system. That's right. Well, we learned, I mean, it is a part of what maybe we won't get to now, but that's on the horizon is I actually did want to talk a little bit about, you know, just, just this legacy that you are leaving, you know, that, that is a part of the psychedelic science arena now. Um, I mean, it's, you've been doing this since the sixties. Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:all, as many of you who are listening, got excited with microdose with, with psychedelics because you had a large dose experience and of your mind blew open for good or for ill. And most of them, for most of you, most of it stayed
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:so that people literally look at their own ideological kind of view of the world in terms of pre and post psychedelic experiences. That's where I spent most of my time. And if someone had said, you know, if you take the smallest possible dose, that has absolutely none of the effects that you study, it's really fascinating. And I would think to
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:To who? That's right.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:uh, and couldn't be less interested. And of course, the way the divine plan unfolds is I think if whatever divinity you think there is, I know the one that, I'm in touch with has a sense of humor. Said, Hey, Fadiman, since you're only interested in high doses, how about these absolutely minuscule tiny doses? And learned over the years, I said, okay, show me
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Show me what I'm. Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:12 years ago.
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Well, I love that. I love that. Also like the, the divine message of, um, not everything that's impactful has to be this big thing, because we do exist in a culture that tries to sell us on like big is better, more is better. And what some of these psychedelics are, have taught us is actually not necessarily that in small, that amazing things can happen even in small doses.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Well, what we know is even the word large and small, you know, if you've ever seen one of those wonderful films, one that's called powers of
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:One that I know of, you start with a person lying on a beach then you go out and you see it's a big beach and then you go out and you see it's part of a, a coastline and by the time you're about eight or ten, ten times out, you're looking at
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:and, and then there's another other ones that start with that person lying on the beach and then you go inside by the time you've gone a tenth, a tenth, a tenth, a tenth, you're watching molecules and they look a lot like
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:That's right. What's big and what's small is all about that perspective.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:so what I found with micro dosing is if a person's life is or, um, or shifted, or, or they basically suffer
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:let's be,
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:and that's what
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Then that's big. Yeah. If they suffer less, that's big. Yeah. I think I heard a talk once, I mean, I know you've given many, many, but I listened to one where you reminded, the audience, myself included, that low and slow is a good way to go about microdosing. Low and slow.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Well, it's, it's basically, it's start low, meaning whatever the dose you think is appropriate, start a little
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Go slow, meaning you're taking it every, either every day, every couple
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:uh, you're taking a few days a week off. And the third part of that is take
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Is take time off.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:And one of the curious things is, independently of any of my work, groups around the world came up with. taking
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Now, it's very hard to think of a pharmaceutical
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:includes that instruction. And so it's the first hint that maybe microdoses, just because they're small often can be put into capsules, doesn't mean they act like a pharmaceutical. So
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:just a hint, and we'll probably get to a few more hints
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah. Yeah. Kind of challenging that traditional way that we prescribe that it isn't an everyday thing..
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:the reason it's prescribed every day is because most pharmaceuticals are what we call
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:which is you have a headache, It can suppress your awareness of the headache. Does that help your headache? Does it give you any hint of causes? No. Does it give you any way to not get it again? No. But you're out of pain for a few hours. So it's, it's a, it's a different model. It's not bad or good. It's
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Different model. Yeah. Yeah. So what are some of the highlights from this upcoming book that you're most excited about?
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Well, we're most excited about Transcending the again, as we were talking about, what's the pharmaceutical mental mental habit? What's the habit in psychedelics? Well, your psychedelics, you must be looking towards something that's therapeutic that takes training and staff and a lot of it cost that you may change your life. you may have your symptoms return in six months. this massive shift is such that you can't function during it. Remember, when we see pictures of people taking psychedelics in clinical studies, we always see the same picture, which is the person lying on the couch, the big differences are the headphones on or off, or the eye shades
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:And now and then, you see ones where someone actually
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:The reason is, if you've had a high dose psychedelic, you know, you don't want to do anything else. Part of your body says I move so slowly and your mind is moving so fast that if you walk around in me, you're going to fall over.
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:And the light is sufficiently bright and things are happening in the visual field that are so, uh, either enchanting, disturbing, or at least overwhelming, you really would be pretty happy
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm,
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:So it's a It's an interruption and a very powerful interruption in
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm,
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Microdosing, let's say you have, your job is operating heavy machinery, or you're in sales, or you're a teacher, you microdose in the morning. What we know is you'll be able to do moving the heavy machinery with a little bit
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm,
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:little bit more
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:a little bit more, even the little ratty ones, and, um, you will be able to You will either be a better salesperson, or you will begin to reflect the emptiness of your life. And we have a wonderful, wonderful example, because
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:it. This was someone in sales, and he was taking the appropriate dose, having whatever benefits he had called for, and like, Many people in the psychedelic world, if some is good, more is better. So instead of taking 10th of a gram, he said, well, I think I'll take a 20th. You know, I'll take two 10ths of a gram and go to work as I do. he's sitting in a sales meeting and he has this, this insight. I don't care about this product.
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:hmm. Uh huh.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:And then he looked around and nobody noticed. And then he had another insight. He says, I don't like sales. And at that point he did the right thing. He left the meeting
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Uh
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:and. He overdose again because he actually did like his job, but the part of him that was
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:huh.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:to, uh, a new expression, get
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm,
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:um, wasn't
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:And so the distinction between the correct dose and the incorrect dose is, is there. And it's, it's one of the
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:That's right, that's right, I think that, I think it's been called the sweet spot,
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Right. The sweet spot is what's enough for you today.
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah,
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:okay, now I don't have to think about it anymore. Um, that I don't have to think about it anymore in sweet spot is about how much toothpaste you put on. Put on much the same amount and you don't think
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:that's right.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:But if you say what's the right amount of, French fries. That
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm,
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:And it varies in all kinds
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:And so you actually dose yourself with french fries differently. Depending on the conditions. Microdosing is more like you are in control of determining what's What's
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:It's also when you work
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:you know, your trainer says, do, you know, do 10 reps and you notice, you know, nine and 10. I really didn't like, and they
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:How about eight and I'll do another set. And then, oh, boy,
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah. Bye bye.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:my trainer and he says, Hey, that sounds
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate that for sure. I think that when I think about one of the many things that psychedelics and micro dosing, any dose, have brought us meaning those that are interested, whether, we're using ourselves or we're teaching about it or researching it is this, you know, it's amplified this notion of intention. And I love that, you know, I think anybody that works in a wellness profession is going to, is going to value the importance of intention. And I love that that's come out of, or at least maybe it's amplified, through the work is, is not just having intention, but being intentional. Almost, it's like a muscle that you would tune now differently at any given moment. And that I think is pretty powerful. It wakes us up rather than sedating us.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Well, intention again is you're taking part. In, in, you're making the
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:about where
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:is. And the fact that you now know you have a quote, non specific amplifier, whichever
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:means, what it means is whatever channel you tune into, there's going to be a little more gain, and you're going to have a little more
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:and you're going to see things that you didn't see
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:I was looking at a report from a woman on her first dose day, she said, I looked at a movie that I like very
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:and I, as, but when I saw it this time, there was one part of it where I
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:And she said, I never had really paid attention to that character before. So it was something she knew
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:was clearly of time
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:But because she'd microdosed, she was
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:to raise the gain on what she was observing and she saw things. That had always been there, but she'd never worked with it before. She'd never kind of connected at the, at that next
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah, that example is such a good way to describe the why behind what's different. Well maybe the what's different between non guided or intention, just like festival use for fun versus with intention in a controlled setting is that you can, you have, I always say like non specific psychedelics are non specific amplifiers, right? But I think that. That was what Stan Groff. Um, but I say that we have, we're more likely to make them specific with intention and with, you're more likely to have it be, specifically amplified, but there's still not a guarantee.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:well, the nice thing is, is when you make, when you have an intention, it shifts your mind. Now it may not shift it in the way you think it should be shifted, but, um, but you know, very little about how anything in your mind works, I think it was Alan Watts that said, you don't know how anything works in your body. some reasonable skeptics say, well, that's ridiculous. And Alan said, can you make a fist? And the guy said, yeah, and holds up a fist. Alan says, tell me how you did it. And tell me, because we know it went through muscles, it went through nerves. It went through posture, went through mobility. It went through intellectual understanding of what the word fist means. really while you knew is you said. Make a fist. And your body says,
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah,
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Um, intention focuses. It doesn't necessarily, um, fill in what, what
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:that's right. That's right. And the making sense of it, making meaning of it is sometime for, I mean, it can be the most powerful and the most transformative and, and impactful. And I found that not just with individual work, my own, and also with clients, but also couples, you know, that they, that, that they may even go in with a certain intention, thinking they're going to explore a certain arena and come out. Yeah. Um, with a completely different thing that's awakened or alive in them. And then they get to explore that in their sober, with their sober mind, which is, which is where the real magic happens.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Well, the magic happens at a different level, which is, um, when you have a little bit of, of,
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:and you have an insight, oh, when we do this quarrel, it's actually always about this.
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:It's not really about the dirty dishes.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:That's the moment. And then they go home and they say, wow, it was really an incredible session. Sabrina is just, who would have imagined in such a short time we would have this big insight. And they have the old fight. At that
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:they have a chance to at least have the fight that it's
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah. Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:They have a chance to do something differently because they've seen it isn't put together the way they thought
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:And that moment when a couple begins to do that. One is, not necessarily their intention, but their, their attraction for each
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:I
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah. Hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:we have in the book is a little section, uh, on sex.
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:I'm so glad to hear that. It's important. Yes.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:You know,
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:We are sexual beings.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Well, um, for a while, at least the first 90 years or so. Um, and what, what we looked at is, it was a, and someone many years ago when I was just trying to learn, I got a little note that says, Hey, man. If it gets out that this helps your libido, you got a real product, okay? we now see that, that report,
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:better sex. there are two possi at least two possibilities. You're kind of a couples therapist
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:You may have more ideas, but idea is literally, like this guy said, you have more libido. You're more, more turned on. The other, which I find equally interesting, and has more implications, is You're in better
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yes. I was going to say that.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:You're paying
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yes. Mhm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:of each other. You're more sensitive to your touch, and touched
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:For sure.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:do. that in itself, um, so you really shifted the nature of the relationship by a few degrees. And that one of the ways you notice that is better
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah. For sure. And I get that question a lot, will, is, is this going to improve our sex life? and I usually will, of course don't answer it with a specific yes or no, but I answer it with well, let's talk about what that would mean for you and, and how you want it to improve. And then we talk about, that one of the things that I've noticed, of course, is that is aligned with what you're saying is that. Psychedelics and microdosing has the capacity to improve your relationship with yourself, with yourself. With your body with, and so that will increase your confidence, increase your creativity and, it, it helps with all of these things that, um, are helpful when in a sexual setting, right? If you feel more confident, if you feel more, you know, you have a better relationship with yourself and your body, that's going to play out in a great way with your sexual partner. And then I also say that it, because of what it has the capacity to do with softening really rigid, maybe long held resentments, it has, the ability to help you soften there, that that's going to improve being attracted to your partner as well. And so. it's not just as simple, although that may be true as well. Maybe it does increase libido on a neurobiological level or something. Right. But then it also is so complex with all these other, interpersonal, elements that are just lovely to see, you know? Um, so my answer is usually like, yeah, if you want it to improve and you're, you're doing the work, then likely it will. As well as many other things in your life.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:right? It will, it will clarify you will understand it better. And if both of you are feeling that you want it to improve, that's the direction you will get the
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yes. Yeah. And clarity is actually one of the tracks that, that I often work with folks on, people over the years I've had couples come to me that, I have like three different categories, the couple that want, they're struggling, it's a new struggle, maybe not. It hasn't, they haven't been struggling for that long. There hasn't been a huge rupture. Like infidelity or something, but they just don't feel as connected. They want to feel connected again, deepen their relationship, maybe increase their intimacy, something like that. And then the second couple is one that is not clear as to whether they should stay together because maybe they've been struggling for so long or maybe there's been a big rupture and one or both just don't know if they can make it. And so they come in for like discernment. Counseling, you know, and then my most favorite, to be honest, because there's such a need are the couples that come in and they know that they're not going to make it and they want to have an amicable ending or a meaningful ending, a conscious uncoupling, which is kind of that term that's made, been made popular by, I think, Catherine Woodward. And I love working with those couples because they're so, they're so often not being served or supported. And psychedelics can help with that as well. You know, conflict resolution, softening those old resentments, even if the end goal or the end outcome rather isn't that they end up back together or staying together. Maybe the end goal is that they have a happier ending, that they have one that is more loving. Wouldn't that be great? If that's the gift we could give to the world is have happier endings.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:I mean, it's interesting when you get to a certain place in your life and you look back on your relationships that, that ended, my computer fell down at the whole notion of
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:That's right. It's like it's over.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:My computer is
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Not yet, commuter. Not yet.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:And, and you look back and you see why you were
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:And you see usually also why you're
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:as I'm seeing with, uh, with my friends, a number of those old relationships are then re ignited, rekindled, re. got together because they've all been, they've now had 50 years of working it through and they can see what they saw in the other. And then they look at this older person and sometimes, um, they also see what was so, compelling about the younger
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:and it wasn't all the stuff
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:we have, Dorothy and I have some friends where. They were, they were close in high school, but as we know, being close in high school almost always means something's gonna happen in college and it won't work out. And so, uh, but they actually remained friends, but not very
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:And, uh, 50 years later, they, reconnected. Both are now. alone
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Oh,
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:and they got married a couple months ago and they're an incredible
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:so maybe there's hope for me and my, and the ex love of my life, Andy, maybe he'll maybe, maybe 20, 30 years from now, there's hope. Yeah,
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:look back and you will say we were so good that we broke up at that point in our lives and usually the Andy will say know I wasn't livable with and of course I assumed it was all your fault but now I can see how we were And how both of us were, we're working things out.
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Oh, I love it. Well, you know, is this is a good segue because I wanted to ask you, on your website, one of the sections you have is my wife, Dorothy. And I just love that. I love that she gets a section. And then when you click on the section, you know, you say we've been together for 50 years. So that means something's working. And this is a, this is a pot. I would agree with that, right? This is a podcast that is about relationship wellness. It's of course also about education on psychedelics and microdosing, but given that you've been, you know, in a marriage for 50 years. What can you tell couples about how to make it work? Oh, I like that. Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:they go up on the wall for a few years and, um, I don't think this is, if I were a therapist, I'd say it's a little heavy on my wall. It says at one point, don't sweat the small stuff. And then there's another sentence below that. And it's all small stuff. And it's a way of saying, usually the real question is what, since we're in a bad space, we're angry at each other, we're disappointed each other, we're afraid of each other. The question is what triggered it, not what are we talking about? Because what we're talking about is the way we cover
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:See, what triggered it is you
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah,
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:and I've never told you this because it was so horrible, exactly what my mother said to me, and the next year I started flucking out
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:yeah, yeah,
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:So, and you used that
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:yeah,
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:and I reacted and controlled myself, and you said, what's upsetting you, and
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:and here we are.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:So one of the nice things about therapy is, all couples know this, one of the reasons they want to go to, they want to go to therapy, they want to say something to their spouse. spouse or their ex or whatever, that they don't have the nerve to say their own, because they'll get hit in the
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Totally.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:But they know that the therapist is going to say, oh really,
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yes,
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Suddenly there's a freedom to kind of, so it looks like if you're kind of doing a film and you don't speak English, it looks like people are talking
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm, Mm hmm,
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:But what they're really doing is pretend talking to the therapist and really talking to their spouse and saying really heavy stuff that they wouldn't
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:yeah, yeah,
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:So where does microdosing come into that? lowers the
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:yeah,
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:It doesn't make people, when, when someone says, you know, I know if I ever said this to you, it would really hurt you and you say it and it really hurts them. So you
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:mm hmm
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:but you're doing it in therapy and your goal isn't to
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:mm hmm
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:get that your goal isn't to hurt them. So a whole level of the temperature allows them to kind of look again, not at the
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:yeah
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:What happened that the content from this side didn't
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:mm hmm
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:You know, when I said, you know, sometimes you remind me of your mother and you say, oh, no,
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:mm
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:know, you went a horrible thing to say to me, because hear. in that statement, all the stuff that they don't want to identify with their mother.
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:yeah
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:And this poor devil said, you remind me of your mother and didn't get a chance to say, you both have the same magnificent
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:hmm mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:They never, they never get that far.
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:I'm sure talking, saying that to you is like, what do you think I do for a living every day?
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:I love it though. I get to hear it, you know, differently and it, and you're, and that's absolutely right. It's, it helps couples get to that, the underbelly, I also call it, you know, that, that level of that, that cut through the cut through the bullshit, cut through the weeds and get to the real stuff, which is why I like that quote of don't sweat the small stuff. And then the reminder that it is all small stuff in the grand scheme of things. If we go back to your example of the person on the beach and then you zoom out and you zoom out and you zoom out and now it's just the stars. And
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:you know, I'm fascinated how microdoses has shifted how you see your practice.
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:yeah, well, I mean, it's transformed my practice. Absolutely. My shift to. Working more with psychedelics happened at a time in my life where I myself was being, I was experiencing the transformation of both microdosing and then, and then later I went on to have some amazing, guided, um, bigger psychedelic experiences. And. I had been working in the mental health field, ultimately since I was like, you know, 23 years old, and I'm 46 now. And psychedelics, finding them again, we'll say finding them differently, finding them again, in my forties. It seemed so well aligned with everything I had already learned and been practicing it with mental health. It just amplified it for me and my practice. Because I'm in Oregon, I was following of course, the measure one Oh nine and the different policies and laws as they were, as they were emerging and being really interested. And I was a professor at OSU at the time. And, and so it was already on my radar. And then when I started to have these personal experiences, I thought, my goodness, I'm I can't not work with these medicines because now I see firsthand how if you're already doing this therapeutic work, there's this primer that, that, I mean, it can be so well aligned with that work that for me, you know, cause I am someone of course, that's been doing a lot of work. I mean, that's part of the job is to know yourself and to do your part so that you're a healed healer rather than a wounded or bleeding healer. And so, you know, I think. Psychedelics really helped me, get creative and anchor in this is the next arm of my career is to focus more on that. And then the, and then working with couples, I was already working with couples and with family, adult family systems. That's one of my favorites. I come from a big family myself. Um, blended family with lots of like beautiful mess. My father's a Syrian immigrant. My mother was raised here, was an army brat, um, for, much of her life with my grandfather, who was a big part of our upbringing. and I have three siblings and, we've done a lot of work as adults. to, you know, try to stay in love with each other, try to stay a family. And so I really love that. And that adult family work and couples work with psychedelics really does seem to be a good fit for, for where I'm at.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah. Well, in, in, in any system, better
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:don't necessarily lead to better results, but make it easier have
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah,
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:make it possible to have psychedelics are a tool,
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:that's right. They're a tool. They're a tool that now that I know about them, I can't not use them or offer them. And that's not to say that I'm going to use them with everyone or that everyone should use them. Of course not. But I can't ignore the power that they have. And, we haven't talked about the citizen research that, that you collected for up until recently, right? For many years where you get to hear all these stories of how microdosing has helped individuals. And I love, I love that kind of research because that's human research. That's, you know, like I, like the book chapter that I sent you about the Mary Poppins, example, when you take away the sugar and the dancing and Mary Poppins love and joy, and you just have the medicine, you really aren't going to get the same results. And so I like to think about that too when it comes to working with any tool. Like you said, it's, is this tool going to be the right fit and how we use it and how we definitely don't want to abuse it and, and, and respect it and get to know it. Um, so that's a part of it too.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Well, it's wonderful that you were, that you're living in a state which says it's not criminal to help
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hat tip for Oregon. Yeah. And Colorado maybe too now.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:and, you know, and
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:And Holland. Yeah. Outside the U S of course. Yep.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:One of the little towns obvious things we, we answer in the book. The book's all questions and answers that we've gotten over the years, and one is, one is, is it legal? And where, and I'm in such and such. And when you go over the world, there's some places where it's overtly legal. which Colorado and Oregon, and we hope in a week or two, Massachusetts and so forth. it's also places in the world where it's really illegal and they don't like people using it. Then there are a number of countries that say it's illegal and we don't give a
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Right. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:decriminalization. See decriminalization, just to make it clear, um, doesn't make anything legal. just says it's the lowest. poorest use of, you know, of the police there's no budget for it. That's all you have to do.
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:that says is you take a bunch of psilocybin in a place that's decriminalized and. You sit around and write a book that says God spoke to me personally and didn't talk to you. That's fine. If you decide that the person that you've just seen is actually an evil being and you punch them out, then you're not arrested for having, uh, been made a little nuts on too much psilocybin, you're arrested for hurting someone. Just as you, as the same policeman looking at the same situation, there's no psychedelics. is hurting people. in most cases is illegal
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:The idea that healing is illegal, um, is simply a curious quirk in, in history. And
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:A curious work. I like that.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:gotten far enough so people can write about the great stupid making healing
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Okay.
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:I like that. We're getting there. I hope so. Well, there's two, two questions I definitely wanted to get to, and one of them I wanted to actually share a quote that I recently heard, um, from Jane Goodall. And I don't know if you've heard this, but.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Well,
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah, you do. Of course you do. Um, so she, she was asked about being 90 and I know what you're 85 now, 85. Yeah. Uh, she asked about being 90. I don't know what the question was. And she, and she said, my next great adventure is going to be dying because either there's something or there's nothing. If there's nothing, then that's it. But if there's something I can't think of a greater adventure than finding out what it is. And so my question for you, given that you have been working in this arena of altered states of consciousness and, um, you know, thinking about things like what happens after and what it all means. What are your thoughts about, about death and dying about your death? Hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:um, if I can take the emotionality out of this next sentence, I am looking forward to it. But I'm also forward to tomorrow and to dinner and to, um, writing a note to somebody about something that's important. So, um, really what I see with people with, and I will say about myself, it's, it's, it's a little hard once you, you get that being frightened of death, um, is a little bit like being frightened of a, of a ghost mask. That you know you're. You know, your father has put on and when you when you're a parent and you scare your children and you suddenly realize they took it serious, it's a terrible feeling because, you know, they know better. But somehow you've disrupted them and they're taking it in the worst
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:And we live in a death phobic
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah, we do.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:It's very hard to find a culture that says. When you die, the first thing we're going to do is pickle
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:and then we're going to put you in good quality clothes, better than you might own, and then we're going to have everybody
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah. Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:The terrible thing, and as a therapist you find this out, a small
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:it's Uncle Ed, who you
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:look in the casket, and Uncle Ed has never looked better. And you say, what are you going to do with Uncle Ed? And they say, we're going to
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Put them in the ground.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:the box, we're going to bury it, and you go home and
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Starting with people die and seeing them die seems to be a
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Curious. It's a very good idea if you have
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:to let them see
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah. Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:because otherwise,
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:They'll be looking for you.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:like the rest of us, they will have grief, but they will, if you just stop showing up, it's
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:So the other thing from psychedelics, and I, I can't put microdosing in this place. Um, if psychedelics teach you your primary sense of identity is not of you that turns around when someone calls your name.
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:So that the part of you that turns around, someone says, Jim in a crowd, and I will turn around three or four other people
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:That's not that that's not, that's a part
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:hmm. Wait.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:you look at any of the major religious traditions, what they say is the top saints in our system had this experience and they came back and said, don't worry so much about the self. It's not that big a deal. And you say, but it's me. And they say, well, it's part
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm. Like the symphony of cells. Yes. Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:You say, well, yeah, it's my fingers. Nobody else's finger in the whole universe. Well, what happened if you lose it? You say, well, I, I wouldn't like it. It's not positive. I can't think of any benefit, but. It's just my
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:What if it's just your
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Um, so the question of approaching, of approaching death without, uh, either undue curiosity or If you talk to the Tibetans, they say, well, there are ways we can teach you where you can stay aware between
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:uh,
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:lives, being Jim Fadiman doesn't die. Well, a lot of Jim Fadiman might die because. Very hard to remember them, but if you really want to remember the Jim Fadiman ness as well as your essential nature, we Tibetans actually work
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm. Mm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:and we do that. Uh, and I was listening to Bill Richards the other night, who is the, who is the only working psychedelic trainer and guide who's older than I am. And he said, my job is, is with high doses is simply to, to let people know they can let go of their fear of
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah. Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:And what if the fear of death is simply phobic,
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:like children may have a fear
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah. Yeah. I believe that.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:or
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:and
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah,
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:So,
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:I'm certainly, at least for now, not afraid of death. I was also raised by, so my grandfather, who died at 90, I got to be a part of his, end of life. I actually moved for a, for about a couple of years to be closer to him. He died, it, it's been maybe two years now and he, throughout his whole life. Um, throughout my life, I should say, he was the one that I think planted the seed of thinking outside the norm in terms of what consciousness is, because we have, whether it's biological or not, we dream vivid dreams and have since we were little. And my grandfather would often have these dreams that, We're sort of almost premonition dreams, you know, so we got to have these really cool conversations about like how that's even possible and how people dream things that are happening across the world. You know, what's that about? Long story short, you know, his death, I like to talk about it in terms of that. It was a beautiful death because he had everyone that loved him most in the world surrounding him. You know, and I got to be in what's one of my favorite places now. Um, when someone takes their last breath, which is at his feet, holding his feet, his bare feet were on my bare hands and I guided, it wasn't an intention to do so. I just naturally ended up doing it. My three siblings and my mother, we were all surrounding him and, uh, and I just started to narrate his ending because I could see somehow, that now I know we call them the veils, but at the time I didn't, and I could see he was making his exit. And so I just started to tell him who was surrounding him and, kind of narrate his life and narrate his way to the other side. And, to this day, it's one of my most. Favorite memories.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:For most people, they will say, I have a real fear of death and it doesn't affect my life in the slightest. Because you also ask them, particularly people who are authentic Christians, I Which means they haven't read the Bible, but they know a
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:and they know they should live by it, and they do sometimes. And you say, is being reunited with God and with Christ? Yes. Is it going to be wonderful?
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yes. Then why are you so fucking scared?
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Right? Yeah.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:That. I'll miss all kinds of things. Unless missing isn't part
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:experience, Jim? I don't know. I've never died.
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:I have said what you just said really resonated with me I often say when I'm trying to be really succinct, when people ask me how, either microdosing or psychedelics have, have impacted me, I will often say, honestly, they helped me get. Closer to the truth, closer to my truth, like genuine truth, right? The truth like for that woman is I don't believe this, so shouldn't I mark it false? And that really resonates because I do think that, you know, as human beings, we do have this tendency to, because of the world doing all the things it does and all of our defenses that we, we often think we know ourselves when really we're diluting ourselves. I know we're, we're about out of time. So I wanted to end with this final question. Um, although I could truly could just talk to you for hours and hours, we started out today's program with that quote of, you know, that you've been called the father of microdosing. And so my question is, how do you want or hope to be remembered by the psychedelic science community?
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:We're back to death, which is you don't get remembered until you're, you're gone. But what I like is that the moment is being noticed by the psychedelic community. And I'm at the moment in a moment of rare self created
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Oh, I love it.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:When you finish a book. Um, if you go to the back of back cover, there's Charlie Jones said, best damn book I've ever read on whatever your title is, and you get a few of those. So I've been writing
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Hmm.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:write those. So the goal is to be as nice as possible way beyond what you would do in any social setting. So I'm getting a few of those and I love
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:That's so great. It's,
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:Every once in a while, I think, Oh, they really mean it deeply. And then I think, well, I wait, wait, I've written a bunch of endorsements. In fact, I've written endorsements for about half of these
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:they owe me, but mostly it's authentic.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:both told me, which is partly why I asked, but it's also an understood system of looking for the absolute best in something.
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yeah. I mean, what I heard in that answer was really lovely. It was, I hope, I'm hope I'm remembered. I hope that I'm thought of as significant and, and that usually that happens after someone's gone, but I think, I think also it happens when someone's still here and absolutely you are recognized and, um, and celebrated
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:so this has been, this has been wonderful to
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:yeah, thank you so much. Sure. Thanks.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:and I love the
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Thank you.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:and I will, I will, I'm sure I'm going to hear a bit
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:I can't wait.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:you
dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-17-2024_150234:Yes. Thank you for being here. I will remember it for a very long time. It means so much to me that you agreed to come and talk to me. And I, I just, I can't wait to read your book and I will look for that article and journal of voices and, and I hope our paths cross again.
jim-fadiman---he-_1_10-17-2024_150234:me. Well, they are, they are already interwoven.